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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:52 am 
Messenger of God

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I'm going to go with a personal comment here that has nothing to do with Chinchilla Games and is my own opinion as an individual.

I'm not sure i understand the fuss over the stretch goals.

Bastion is dead. We are not Bastion. It costs money to release stuff.

We paid for the rights and some stocks, but we lost the molds, printing deals etc. and each of these molds cost 10-15K. So basically each unit is a project on its own. When we put something on Kickstarter, we have to make sure we will be able to pay for remolding if we sell more than our current stocks. Those with fair quantities were included from the start into the Kickstarter and the profit we make on those is what pays for the book.

If we already have about 100 Mendicums at 30$ each and we have to pay for shipping and boxing, these would bring about 23$ each. At 23$, to be able to sell 101 of them we need to pay about 10k for molds. This mean we need to sell less than 100 or more than 435 to make any kind of profit on those. The extra 10k we ask to unlock this stretch goal is our insurance policy.

People talk about clearance sale, and It really annoys me because we are putting so much effort into the book and the whole campaign right now and we try to make a good game with a fair price. Comments like that really just makes me think it just might be simpler to trash the whole thing and start a Boardgame like everyone else.

Sorry if it seems to be a bit rough but, common, there's 29 hard plastic, high detail miniatures for 55$ with a digital copy of a full color, 200+ pages rulebook and another complete fully functional game, all that shipped to your door.

Anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:13 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:06 pm
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Location: Flörsheim/Germany
There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I was saying that it "looks like" a clearance sale, not that it has to be one. But be honest, what is really new on this campaign right now? Only the rulebook. Imho you have to get backers first before you can start selling products, and right now the campaign does not look very backer-friendly to me. There are way too many kickstarters up to pledge right mow that you can make well money with it by "just" selling rules and models. Good prices do not make it any more. Look at the alien vs . predator kickstarter: horrendesly expensjve but people are backing it because of the idea. Same goes for golem arcana. 500k because of the new idea. The other way is mantic or reaper. Insane amounts of freebies and insane low prices. Ex illis is doing well, but after a few years of kickstarters this might be not enough. The feedback from our german readers - thats what i can take as base to talk about it - was more or less "average". Nit sure if this is enough to sell a game even years after the kickstarterkampaign.

Concerning "thrashing it": well to be honest, I Do belief personally, that going for a written rulebook is a risky way and might thrash the game itself. Because there are tons of games with better miniatures, more settled players in "their" system and better (or lets say: more playtested) rules. There ist just no market for the thousands 28mm D6 (D8, D20) tabletop game. I once again see the problem by misunderstanding what people where complaining about the first time. The Computer interface wasn't that good, people where not understanding the mechanics that the pc was using in the background. But this does not mean to make a written book but to improve the interface. This interface was what made ex illis special. With a rulebbok and d6 it is just another average game among thousands. Focusing on an smartphone app without all the grafic stuff (people where either complainingabout the bad graphics or the fact that they would not need the miniatures on the board if it is on the screen) focusing on the economy system and the trade of items between players and maybe some cool gimmicks like geocaching items in the "real world" would have been my improvementpoints.

Nevertheless it is not my decision. Imho Kickstarter needs to be something new and cool, even more since every second tabletop game is at kickstarter and funding has gotten a lot more difficult. It might be working the way chinchilla games is doing it, i really hope for that. I was one of the few german players really supporting the game, we had an article about the kickstarger on our Website now as well, still i am not convinced that the campaign - even if funded - will bring the game itself back to life on a well established player base.


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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:09 am 
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You make a fair point.

I really hope we make it so people can see where we can go with this game.

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:08 pm 

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hi Steeve

if you have a limited amount of some products why not put them up as early bird pledges to bring in funds to hep fund the rules?

i.e. if you only have 100 Mendicums then add them to the pledge list (maybe with the rules included as a $100 pledge) then when they are gone you can do the stretch goal to get the moulds remade

I think if you are straight with people and tell them why some units are not being offered straight away that may help explain why you have structured the KS this way. whilst I'm sure there are people who just want a KS to give them lots of freebies there are also a lot who want to support a game in the initial phase and help it become a success and those are the people who you need to attract to the game

anyway just an idea

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:34 pm 
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a player build and supported company has much greater change of making it in this very tough market .

By giving a pen and paper rule book it gives all of us your player base a chance to try out things we wanted the mad Rabbi will finely be customized and themed . new units can be tryed new rules can be home-brewed and shared ..

Bastion had the limitation of a few peoples vision of what everything should be the more open and flexible the system is the wider interests and the bigger the base grows.

If the new company releases models that are more flexible and mold-able into different themes they will get the support to pre-fund each new mold . A unit that has different heads, different styles of the same weapon type , and a drop and drag skill tree so that the skills represent the unique troop type.

lets take some examples;
model Magic user: , body robed , different heads for different regions in the exillis world .. arms holding different items that personify one of the 9 different schools of magic . skill trees for these nine different schools . the makings of over 80 different possible variations

here how it works if there is enough interest from fan base kick start for the mold and first run , then have contest for all pen and paper rule players to come up with best skills and spells for each school , rules to include doing historical research and fitting in the Exillis world ideas and play tested using the book rules. winners are programmed into the game.
company now sells the models to distributors and game stores . overhead is minimized as your R&D is player built you yourself being players with great weight in the final edits. as this base grows you will get the pulse of what will be hot.

Same with units and other heroes the more generic and mold-able , and because that model, has enough variety and optins it could might be the Mad Rabbi for one player the zombie Pope for another player the Priest King for another, or even a named charector of your choosing.

Your demographics are creative brilliant people like your selfs we want just as much as you do to enjoy creating something. The Exillis world is the container for us a a player built company to build something extraordinary.

I believe you can make the numbers work , just two mold releases a year would give the company hundreds of new units to sell , using player content to feature the themed and customization tey are capable off, which keeps promoting that mold set . I may not get excited about a unit of footmen, until three articals later a Spanish player a world away share a unit he created after some historical unit , and wow I got to get that unit now !!!

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:54 pm 
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a)I agree with Yosef. Space for our own invention is best way to expand the world of EX ;)

b) I still can´t decide which one of the Kickstarter pledges is the best for me :D Maybe the Knight or Captain... But I don´t know :roll: I want W. Wallace, I want miniatures, I want book... But Paragon is probably too expensive... :? What about a new "Captain-like" reward with Wallace instead of Lucifer? :twisted:

c) How far are you in repairing those issues? (Franc chevaleur wrong max. level, no experience from battles...) Don´t hurry, I am just asking :)

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:38 pm 

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Again, I really hope for the best because I Liked the game. But I am wondering her that you believe a written rulebook gives more space for our own inventions. I would have guessed quite the opposite. An interface with a generator for own units would be - imho - quite more flexible ( if we would know which stats are influencing the calculation of the gaming results which seems to be unclear with the prese t interface system). You could download other characters, test them, rate them and the best could be made official by the chinchilla team even with a model to sell it (maybe once per year). Concerning flexibility I Would always relay more o an app based interface than an rulebook.updates, new units, testing stuff, experimental rules - this could be all solved much more easy on an app tha a written rulebook or am I Completely wrong here? I guess it would be a lot cheaper as well...


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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:11 am 
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Craddoc wrote:
Again, I really hope for the best because I Liked the game. But I am wondering her that you believe a written rulebook gives more space for our own inventions. I would have guessed quite the opposite. An interface with a generator for own units would be - imho - quite more flexible ( if we would know which stats are influencing the calculation of the gaming results which seems to be unclear with the prese t interface system). You could download other characters, test them, rate them and the best could be made official by the chinchilla team even with a model to sell it (maybe once per year). Concerning flexibility I Would always relay more o an app based interface than an rulebook. updates, new units, testing stuff, experimental rules - this could be all solved much more easy on an app tha a written rule-book or am I Completely wrong here? I guess it would be a lot cheaper as well...



Yes if everything was already in the programming it would be the best!!! but your talking about a lot of programming to get to that stage of development. So right now there is a lot of things that have to be worked out with pen and paper rules first before it can be programmed , so if we the player's are doing that it cuts down on development costs. I to hope someday like Lone Wolf "army builder" you can build a custom unit ( BTW I was an active beta tester for that product and features were added as a result of my imput) so i see after many years Rob at lone wolf is now making a good living from his product but for many years player supported his hobby company until its base and footing in the industry was established.

the code supports the models was the idea of the Bastion CO never charge for the program with the idea of adding real value to the models. although I think that was a Nobel idea the truth is to survive in this industry you have to make money on all aspects of the game. Perhaps Not as greedy as Games Workshop but you have to make money on the code to keep developing new code. Here I am about to buy a $70 book but the program is worth twice that amount in time savings and pliability .

So for the programming to be done money has to be made and this book is one good tool in making it possible to sell models before the code is written so that there is money to write the code for the models. I hope to see kickstarters for every new model mold and first run . then a pdf of the rules leting the player base test and add on ideas .

once they strip off all that worthless animation and boarding graphics it will be much simpler to write the code and much faster code (most of the bugs I encountered come from the animation executions.

right now there is over 200 skills programmed in so in time there will be enough skills to make a custom units with there own unique tree of skills a point system will have to be attached to the skills so the unit will be balanced and of course most of the skill now are very tied to the unit and are not flexible to the extent they can be .

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:25 am 

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I agree with Craddoc on this. Ex illis has crawled out of it's niche and suddenly it doesn't seem that special any more. Yeah the background and setting are cool, but without the digitally enhanced part their isn't much to it.

I guess 60 of the backers already knew Ex illis before the kickstarter. I hope the campaign can be tweaked to appeal to at least 400 more new people.

Yosef, The scenario you describe, where players develop new units will never happen. To me both Bastion an Chinchilla Games seem pretty stubborn. Even though a lot of discussions have been going on in these forums, I've seen very little changes being made based on input from the forums.
We've all got ideas of what this game should become, but in the end they're the ones spending their money and free time on their own plans. I bet a lot of us offered help and advice, but If they'd actually want our input, they'd ask for it, and act on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:30 pm 
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Guys, lets lay off the devs.

We all have ideas of how their business should be run, and I know for a fact that they value our oppinions, but let them run their business. As much as I appreciate a game dev that listens to us, I would be weary of a game company that allows the vocal minority to alter the business strategy. At this point the cow has left the barn... is out of the barn... whatever that saying is. This is what they chose to do, and the market will decide if Ex illis is too same-ish to flourish without the computer.

Personally, I think there are enough differences from KOW & WHFB to make this game stand apart, but I am HUGELY biased.

I don't really know what my point is... I just think we are giving them a bit too much grief, and at this point, I'm not sure that its helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:44 pm 
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I agree with Nestor - well made points.

Keep in mind that the kickstarter is not for us, by the way. We own the models and have played the digitally enhanced version. Kickstarter is for people who have NOT yet explored Ex-Illis. And to go with a more traditional format (book) will open more doors. My local playgroup never embraced Ex Illis, and primarily it is because of the digital interface.

However, seeing cool miniatures (need to show these off!) and getting a sense of a rule set that is different than other games is what will make or break the Kickstarter campaign.

For example, Wrath of Kings did well because they offered a different fundamental mechanic than other games (and gave out a beta version of the rules for people to explore before deciding to back) and had very different miniatures.

Ex Illis offers a different mechanic as well, and this needs to be emphasized to potential backers. It is not just another miniatures game, it is something with a unique flavor and specific play.

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:28 am 
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Thanks Madnes, apreciated.

Guys we like you and we'd love nothing more than to do what you are asking of us but, in the end, we need to put bread on our tables. We have day jobs, we don't have the manpower to do things like the one you ask. I'd love nothing more than to work full time on this but with 100 active players, we simply can't. The rulebook project is a solution to that problem.

MikeH wrote:
hi Steeve

if you have a limited amount of some products why not put them up as early bird pledges to bring in funds to hep fund the rules?


Kickstarter doesn't allow you to pledge to more than 1 thing. This is a pretty bad system that limits what we can do with Pledges. (Especially limited ones) So if you pledge to a Mendicum, you can't have the early adopter starter... That's why they are add-ons.

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I agree with Yosef. Space for our own invention is best way to expand the world of EX


I like your ideas on this. It is just impossible right now. It would require a complete refactor of the code (web and game) and cost possibly near 250k$ easy (1 year 3 programmers an artist and a manager). We don't have that kind of money. It is MUCH easier to customize things with a rulebook.

We are getting a lot of flak for a lot of different things and the Kickstarter is not going as well as we'd hope. We're doing everything we can to give options for this game and i think, all in all, we are able to keep our stuff pretty cheap compared to other similar games. If it doesn't work, we at least think we will have done everything possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:18 pm 
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A lot of interesting points here!

First of all, everyone has their own business ideas, so we don't really know how it can evolve. Right now tablets and smarphones are more common, so i beleive an android app could help to demonstrate for those that prefer the computer version. Is programming on android that different than apple (i know nothing in programming, just a question)?

I think maybe having a beta of the rules to show people before they pledge would be nice. not everything but it permits players to have an idea on how the system works.

I really hope the kickstarter works, but as im jobless at the momment i can't pledge. And is it me or usually kickstarters last 60 days, not 30?

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:42 pm 
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Archangel Gabriel wrote:
If it doesn't work, we at least think we will have done everything possible.


Not really excited about this mindset... I'm hoping it does work, but if it does not, there are several other options, for instance:

Partrner with Game Salute and their springboard program
Re-Launch a digital version KS with scaled down graphics (GA made $500k, there is a market)
Do a Kickstarter for each unit release.

These are all premature, since we have more than 3 weeks left on the KS, but I'm going to dissagree on the statement that after this KS attempt you have done all you can do.

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:48 pm 
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MadNes wrote:
Archangel Gabriel wrote:
If it doesn't work, we at least think we will have done everything possible.


Not really excited about this mindset... I'm hoping it does work, but if it does not, there are several other options, for instance:

Partrner with Game Salute and their springboard program
Re-Launch a digital version KS with scaled down graphics (GA made $500k, there is a market)
Do a Kickstarter for each unit release.

These are all premature, since we have more than 3 weeks left on the KS, but I'm going to dissagree on the statement that after this KS attempt you have done all you can do.


true to that :D

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:20 pm 
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If THIS Kickstarter doesn't work, we will have done everything we can for THIS project.

We have plenty of other ideas for the whole Ex illis franchise.

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:35 pm 
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Archangel Gabriel wrote:
If THIS Kickstarter doesn't work, we will have done everything we can for THIS project.

We have plenty of other ideas for the whole Ex illis franchise.



Lovely

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:04 am 
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Archangel Gabriel wrote:
If THIS Kickstarter doesn't work, we will have done everything we can for THIS project.

We have plenty of other ideas for the whole Ex illis franchise.


I was about to point the same thing; the original meaning being that we still have a lot planned for this kickstarter, and that if with all that it's not yet enough we will know that we did everything we could for this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:47 pm 
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I will say that I really really hope this kickstarter works. Honestly, I have a hard time seeing any other project working if it doesn't because backers get discouraged. You said yourself that you don't have enough time to dedicate. That's totally understandable. But that is when you ask for help and partner with someone who has the time and the expertise. We all want this to be successful, but when we see developers kind of throw their hands up and say oh well, if this doesn't work we will try again with something different, confidence wanes.

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:26 am 

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I am excited for the archduke! I know that it's hard for the devs, but I think the promise of potentially awesome exclusive miniatures is what is needed to boost this funding. Also, I agree that media showing how the paper rules work will be good for showing the game side of things.

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:02 am 

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I guess the question is, what brought people to Ex Illis the first time. Not a paper rulebook obviously. I can understand that a written rulebook is more easy to archive than a new app-based game or massive improvements to the existing software, but as far as the campaign goes it seems to be clear that this not attractiv enough. As well I have to ask why the time spend on written rules (writing, playtesting, layout etc) was not spend on the existing "rulebook" e.g. the software instead. Would be a much more straigt forward attempt to me.
I can understand that programming takes quite some time, but Ex Illis is gone for a few years now, I guess even in the freetime there could be a lot of improvements in the software, there seems to be a lot work put into a professional rulebook, maybe that time was spend on the wrong product?

It might sound harsh, but the times have changened on kickstarter, this might be not the place for garage companys any more, but on the otjer side I have never seen a game trying to "restart" via kickstarter. It is a place for new games, and right noe Ex Illis is just not offering enough new stuff or improvements on core features. Even if I do still hope the best for the game and it's core idea of an software-tabletop, I am not sure anymore that the campaign will be funded. And if so, this will not directly bring Ex Illis back to life.i don't know much kickstarter campaigns who really where more than a one shot game. Not even the big companys like mantic or mcvey with tenthousands of dollars archived a game that lots of people play. This takes a lot more to archive. I can see that here in germany as being part of the german distribution of Dropzone Commander. It is just not enough to "sell". And even if it is surely quite frustrating seeing thecampaing getting stuck not even half way there, I really hope for more ideas how to get the game back on track.


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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Those are all valid point.

We took a bet for Ex illis.

We think this game is awesome and the Digital rule keeper is a big part of it, but we thought it needed fresh players. People that could be convinced to play the digital version one day, but still needed a safe alternative, something they know and like already. That's the bet we took.

Of course you guys see nothing new here, you already know this game. The point is to try to get other people to play the game and for them, everything is new. You guys are still an important part of the whole process because you are witness to our claim that this is a great game.

Nothing is lost yet, we plan to do everything we can to continue spreading the word and convince people te get in this incredible game. We have a lot of competition /noise right now (other KS, Video Games consoles, Holidays etc.) but we still have a couple things we want to bring out in the next couple weeks.

Stay tuned...

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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:18 am 

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@Craddoc. I fully agree with your points. Maybe in 18 days you can say "I told you so" to Chinchilla games. But it doesn't help any of us right now. ;) Chinchilla games made a choice for this rulebook kickstarter. In 18 days we will see the result.

I've listened to Neil's podcast over on Meeples and Miniatures. It gave me a better idea of where Chinchilla games want to go with the rules, as well as an insight into the situation they are in. Spoiler: If you've got an Emissarius: be kind to it. These are pretty much extinct.
In the podcast; Steve managed to explain the mechanics in the game pretty well, there was info on how the game would play: unit cards in a timeline for example. I would like to see this info on the kickstarter, so everyone can see what a different gameplay Ex illis has to offer. :)

(It also gave me some good ideas for the wargaming 3.0 concept I'm working on. 8-))


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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:47 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Ex-illis will be back on Kickstarter!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:39 pm 

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Looking for a "mentor" on the Kickstarter bidding. I don't lknow if this is the right place to look, but at least I'll have tried. PLeas PM me if you are interested.
To follow recent posts' discussion: I am looking forward to the rulebook, even if Ex-Illis' specificity was the computer assisting concept. I really hope that the project will reach its goal.


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