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 Post subject: book rules D6
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:57 am 
Bleeding Edge Knight
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just read http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/672 ... f=activity


:shock: ! was shocked to find out that combat is based on the D6 dice
a D6 means that every pip equals 16.66% so that just a couple modifiers completely skew the system, that's why I cannot stand playing Warhammer as there are so many ways to cheese a few modifiers and make an imbalanced game.

A D20 gives you 5% per pip so that you can have several bonuses and modifiers that will stack and not throw the game out of balance. And is closer to the percentage increases that are in the computer moderated rules.

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:32 am 

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Interesting thought..

So what you mean is that with a D6 any bonus would work in 16.66% increments?
I think that is the case with a single dice roll.

I'm not really good with statistics and my warhammer book hasn't moved in 4 years.
However I think there are several methods to get smaller increments:

•Sum of two (or more) dice: possible number between 2 and 12, with higher chances towards the middle 7.
•Successive rolls with one (or more) dice: this means a divide the chance of a successful second roll by the chance of succes on the first one.
•Re-rolls of failed dice: for example only get a re-roll once you throw a 1.

I believe their are many ways to make stat increases feel differed. The chances of overpowered units are larger than with the digital game, where there is the possibility of a quick update to fix the imbalance.


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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:43 pm 
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I'm with yosef on this one. I think the percentile system is a must here. If nothing else, at least D10s

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:35 pm 
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Lord Ok wrote:
Interesting thought..

So what you mean is that with a D6 any bonus would work in 16.66% increments?
I think that is the case with a single dice roll.

I'm not really good with statistics and my warhammer book hasn't moved in 4 years.
However I think there are several methods to get smaller increments:

•Sum of two (or more) dice: possible number between 2 and 12, with higher chances towards the middle 7.
•Successive rolls with one (or more) dice: this means a divide the chance of a successful second roll by the chance of succes on the first one.
•Re-rolls of failed dice: for example only get a re-roll once you throw a 1.

I believe their are many ways to make stat increases feel differed. The chances of overpowered units are larger than with the digital game, where there is the possibility of a quick update to fix the imbalance.


Lord Ok



it actually gets more sticky and complex when you have two D6 dice :roll:
as I played hero clicks I worked out all this statistics I can show you if you wish but the bottom line is D6 are fine for simple boardgames with a limited and finite set of rules but for a game as beautiful and intricate as Exillis it's really an insult.

What you want is a nice linear progression with dice, so that you can keep the game balance functional, through all its changes and evolutions.

To be honest with you my favorite dice is D100 , that's 1% per pip totally controllable but usually to overwhelming rule system makers unless you're really into creating a rule system that has greater statistical realism.

But 17% is just not really controllable in less you take away a bunch of bonuses and penalties and dumb the game down ,

With a D20 you can make one always a miss and 20 always a hit that way a really weak unit still has a chance of defeating a really strong unit and a really strong unit still has a chance of missing a week unit.

Obviously you can't do that with a D6 , the way D6 games try to handle this is by adding or subtracting dice from the dice pool, but if you look at it the numbers they're not linear and statistical realism is lost for playability,

The brilliance of Exillis was that you could have playability and had a higher level of statistical realism. They cannot lose that advantage in their book version, yes they will have to simplify and compromise a little, but with the right game mechanics it is achievable.

Think of the day before a computer there was things like a slide rule that allowed us to make a lot of calculations, I have made a lotsof wheels adjustable dials and gaming aids that allow more depth at the same time playability. It takes revisiting mechanical engineering principles. I mean just look what was possible in the 1800shttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfeNC28vpYo#t=21

but back to the subject of dice. In the kick starter post they themselves realize that certain units are so strong that weaker units cannot damage them, I'm sure the error is in the and inability for a D6 to represent.

here 2 d6
Roll Comb. Prob.
---- ----- -----
2 1 2.8%
3 2 5.6
4 3 8.3
5 4 11.1
6 5 13.9
7 6 16.7
8 5 13.9
9 4 11.1
10 3 8.3
11 2 5.6
12 1 2.8

so I would agree with you that it at bare minimum a 10 hits but look at this chart let's say we have a D 20 and two units of equal strength have a 50% chance to hit they would have to roll a 10 or better.

You want to make 10 levels of martial power, LV 1 being the weakest LV 10 being the strongest.


D20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

1 10 11 12 13 15 15 16 17 18 19
2 9 10 11 12 14 14 15 16 17 18
3 8 9 10 11 13 13 14 15 16 17
4 7 8 9 10 12 12 13 14 15 16
5 6 7 8 9 11 11 12 13 14 15
6 5 6 7 8 10 10 11 12 13 14
7 4 5 6 7 9 9 10 11 12 13
8 3 4 5 6 8 8 9 10 11 12
9 2 3 4 5 7 7 8 9 10 11
10 2 2 3 4 6 6 7 8 9 10


so even if you have more levels than ! through 10 A D20 fall short, I completely converted the Warhammer game to A.D. 20 system and a completely eliminated the cheeseing that normally goes on, that's why every few years they have to completely redo the rules set because it becomes so unbalanced.

I played a few games with a D30 (which gives you five more levels to work with) D 100 of course would give you 50 levels to work with but rolling handfuls of d100 which require two d10 dice would not be feasible.

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:37 pm 
Messenger of God

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All good and well, but we want to differentiate the Rule book system from the computer system and simplify things for people.

Your assessment is right that a single d6 has a 16.66666...% chance per side but first, we use target number, not "face" specific event so this means you must hit a certain target or more (ex: 5+) so you have 16.67% (6+), 33.33% (5+), 50%(4+), 66.66%(3+), 83.33%(2+) or 100%(1+) chance of success.

You must also remember that you will roll 1 dice for each mini in your unit so rolling a 5+ on 8 dices doing 2 damage should give you around 5 damages (5.33 is 4 or 6...) but can do anywhere between 0 and 16 damages. I think this is granular enough for our needs and still simple enough to be played fast and well.

In the end what we want in our system is for you to focus on managing morale, fatigue and hit points to make decisions that have impacts on the game. The dice roll is only there for a little element of surprise.

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:37 pm 
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Archangel Gabriel wrote:
but first, we use target number, not "face" specific event so this means you must hit a certain target or more (ex: 5+) so you have 16.67% (6+), 33.33% (5+), 50%(4+), 66.66%(3+), 83.33%(2+) or 100%(1+) chance of success. .



I think something got lost in translation her???? I'm not sure what you're saying here if someone else understands please translate for me.

Are you're saying there is a 33% ( D6 5+) chance to hit model per model ?

what does a Envocti need to hit a Vilein?

Or better yet what does a level 40 Envocti need to hit a 5 lv Vilein or vice versa?
my point is that using D6 that one vastly limits the range of combat superiority one unit will have over another.

I do hear that you're saying that the management of of your resources are the strategic component that you're proud of..

I would love to understand your system so that I can support it if you have done what others have yet to accomplish. with a D6 I would be amazed.


there are a few historical wargame rule systems I've played that attempt to correct this D6 problem by using command points thus a unit with higher command points has greater martial ability thus has more actions.

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:16 am 
Messenger of God

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First there won't be 50 levels, so it is not a problem.

I don't have the specific stats but It is not a comparative roll. It doesn't matter if your Evocati is hitting a Vilain or The Emissarius. The Target number is the same. The armor is different so the damage it receives will be quite different.

Say you are using divine strike on Vilains : It take 4+ to hit so you roll 6 d6 and get 3,3,2,4,4,5. Divine strike does 2dmg + 1 light dmg. Vilain has 1 armor 2hp/mini and 0 Mag resist. You got 3 hits so you do 6 Dmg + 3 Light Dmg. The Viliain has 1 armor so you remove 1 from the 6 Dmg, and 0 Mag resist so you remove 0 from the 3 light, means you do 8 dmg total. You remove 4 minis (2hp/mini). Since you didn't kill more than half the unit, the unit still stands and is not fleeing.

Instead of doing this, say you use Light Blast. This is an area attack, so you roll 2d6 and the Target is 7 (this is a special rule for area attack) It does 2 light damage +the number over the target. So if you roll 12 (lucky) you will do (2 + 5) Light damage to every enemy unit in the zone. Since there's only the Vilains and they have 0 Mag. Resist, opponent should remove 3 minis (2hp/mini) and 1 dmg is lost on them.

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:32 pm 
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This would be great info for the kickstarter page.

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 Post subject: lost in translation
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:08 pm 
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:( I'm so disappointed this is not a translation of this beautiful gaming system this is a rough and poor paraphrase.

let's do some real translation.

Melee accuracy of the peasants 20
Melee accuracy of the Angels 40


now I realize this is WRD melee accuracy is against defenses, so the peasants defenses 10 and the Angels defense is 30 thus if I calculate it out it should be as follows;

Angel has a 80% chance to hit peasants ( assuming same level)
Peasants have a 40% chance to hit Angels

So you want me to roll +4 on a d6 per model that a 66.66% chance to hit
and what of the village peasants roles to hit ? on a d6 I'm not going to represent the way those stats play out in the computer moderated game . By the way with a d20 I could still use all the original stats and have an awesome paper and dice set of rules with the ability for the models to level up.

And of course You've had to eliminate leveling and about two thirds of this beautiful game system rules to dumb it down to a D6 rules system. I would rather wait for a release of a decent rule system then to have spent $150 for another book that will gather dust on my shelf. this

I know how brilliant you guys are so get back to the drawing board and scrap the to hit set of rules. You can have the majority of your awesome rules still intact and have a playable game,it just requires thinking out-of-the-box.

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:33 pm 
Messenger of God

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First, there's nothing that ı can say that will please you because you simply want the computer game with dices and what we're doing is a port towards a pretty cool system where you don't spend the night throwing buckets of dice and where you can play a game under 2 hours.

That's exactly why we don't give that kind of detail right now on the Kickstarter pages. You get frustrated without having tried the game. We haven't tested this outside our group and the rules are not ready. When we playtest them with people, we will have input about how fun the system is and if it is too dumbed down or not.

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:05 pm 
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I'm sure this other game is "FUN" that is not what's in question here,

I have been one of your strongest supporters because computer moderated rules finally give us the ability to have realism and playability in a game, my several thousand posts in forums everywhere championed this breakthrough for you.

And I'm telling you as a physicist a paper system that flawlessly translates the core of the computer moderated rules and still is playable in two hours can be done.

I saw this paper set of rules as an opportunity to do game balancing develop new heroes and units develop rule systems for siege, begin to build a large reservoir of player content that your company could draw off of for years to come.

But if it's not the same game but a statistical unbalanced dumb down kiddie game, then of what value is it why even do it? I was allready putting all the stats in spreadsheets so that I could incorporate it into Army builder http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=army_builder

Yes much needs to be simplified but if you can not translate basic percentages like to hit realistically, if you have to take away key components of the game then it's not the same game!!!!!

.By the way I don't think it takes any longer to roll 8 D20 than it does to roll 8 D6 and there is ways to make adjustable dials like for fatigu that resets all the stats accordingly. there are hundreds of game mechanics that can be employed to simplify and speed up play. in over 40 years of seriously gaming I've encountered many awesome game mechanics that can shorten a game playing time.

So should you keep everything a secret and hope that your audience likes your board game mechanics, or should you work with your supporters research every game mechanic and, build a system that Wows the Gaming world :?: :?:

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Archangel Gabriel

I'm sorry if my straightforwardness offended you I do appreciate everything you guys are trying to do.

and I really want to contribute the wisdom of 40 years of gaming

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:18 pm 
Messenger of God

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I'm not offended but it is important to understand where we wanted this book to go. It is aimed at new players and "boardgamers". This crowd wouldn't like too much complexity. It seems they are not convinced by our efforts.

We were quite aware that most old-timers wouldn't like the new system too much since it is not aimed for them. It doesn't add anything for you guys, except the possibility to share development costs over more people.

Lots of things could be said about why it failed (our why it will fail), but in the end we'll never really know for sure.

I think Wargames are too complex and "scare" people a little,
I think assembling and painting miniatures is something most of this crowd doesn't like
I think we should have put more efforts in differentiating both games (Another name maybe?)
I think we should have taken Kickstarter more for a Pre-sale machine than a "Crowdfunding"
I think we should have had a more completed version of the rules and we should have submitted to a beta BEFORE the Kickstarter.
I think our offering is too complex and we should have removed all the expansion units and kept those for later / after sale.

That's my 2 cents

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:56 pm 
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understood
my kickstarter di not make funding also but I was to flat to engage people http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/110 ... e?ref=live.

most good game systems have the basic rules to get people playing then intermediate and advanced rules for people that like realism or a more complex game

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:14 pm 
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Archangel Gabriel wrote:

I think Wargames are too complex and "scare" people a little,
I think assembling and painting miniatures is something most of this crowd doesn't like
I think we should have put more efforts in differentiating both games (Another name maybe?)
I think we should have taken Kickstarter more for a Pre-sale machine than a "Crowdfunding"
I think we should have had a more completed version of the rules and we should have submitted to a beta BEFORE the Kickstarter.
I think our offering is too complex and we should have removed all the expansion units and kept those for later / after sale.

That's my 2 cents


table top mini wargammers have always been a small group that has these unique interests varying in degrees of interest

1. they are collectors
2, they like putting models together and painting them
3. they like lots of strategy options to make there army unique wich means rules that can accommodate lots of different options.
4. the story or historical setting gives meaning to the game ( historical wargamers this is especially true with )

The computer moderated rules of the Exillis world offered realism and playablity it offered a world that had both historical and fantasy elements . these set it apart and why I supported it with time and money.

It was hindered by trying to win over computer gameres with graphhic that turned off war-games and looked lame to computer games,who are not collecteres and saw the minis as a waste of time.

I think the exillis world could pull in the crowd you refer to by making a board game in the exillis world .

The failure was thinking online gamer would be drawn into table top gameming then there was a just bad timing as the gaming world was suffering from the x generation moving to collectible card games and away from mini based games. several min game company's went under and the sales of the big company's dropped.

then Just about the time that you were building a following against all these odds you ran out of money, you needed deep enough pockets to go 4 years

ok now how do you pick up the pieces and make a company that can cash flow ???

1. get rid ASAP of the silly graphics your comapnys bane, make the program look like a computer moderated rule set with battle report features.
2. keep the Exillis world alive with rpg source material , board games , card games, graphic novels,books ect. heck write a screen play and find a producer !!!
3. Make generic genre rule set that players in other game systems can buy and play with there already collected min's so your company becomes the leader in computer moderated rules, have a historical period and fantasy versions with generic names for the units and heros that let the warmichine or warhammer player fit there army in to and try out. wow Just think with this rule set a warhammer player can now play a warmichine player. and any one who has a mini collection can play with another player now that cross platform would turn some heads look how bigh loneworlfs army builder has become by doing this

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:08 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:42 am
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yosefbender wrote:
I think the exillis world could pull in the crowd you refer to by making a board game in the exillis world .


I'n not so sure about this. The market is saturated right now, Kickstarter has helped this. The computer moderated rules are what set the original game apart. It was something I could use to convince my friends that play historical game to give it a try. The main reason I didn't put money into the Kickstarter, written rules make it just another fantasy miniature game. If they could have found something to do with the moderated rules, I would most likely have gotten on board.

yosefbender wrote:
Make generic genre rule set that players in other game systems can buy and play with there already collected min's so your company becomes the leader in computer moderated rules, have a historical period and fantasy versions with generic names for the units and heros that let the warmichine or warhammer player fit there army in to and try out. wow Just think with this rule set a warhammer player can now play a warmichine player. and any one who has a mini collection can play with another player now that cross platform would turn some heads look how bigh loneworlfs army builder has become by doing this


When I first played, I thought "How cool would this be for a historical game!". In fact, you could get close with the standard units, just leave out the fantasy units. Most of the computer moderated rules on the historical side are not very user friendly, the Ex illis engine would make a good set of historical rules.

Note: I often use the Ex Illis board to play other rules on, its a nice playing surface. When I first got into Ex illis I justified the purchase, know that if the system failed, the gaming board would be usable for years.

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:02 pm 
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as a historical gamer I always wanted a option where you could block out the fantasy rules and skills . I have played a few straight 100 year war games just ignored the fantasy stuff

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 Post subject: Re: book rules D6
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Archangel Gabriel wrote:
I'm not offended but it is important to understand where we wanted this book to go. It is aimed at new players and "boardgamers". This crowd wouldn't like too much complexity. It seems they are not convinced by our efforts.

We were quite aware that most old-timers wouldn't like the new system too much since it is not aimed for them. It doesn't add anything for you guys, except the possibility to share development costs over more people.

Lots of things could be said about why it failed (our why it will fail), but in the end we'll never really know for sure.

I think Wargames are too complex and "scare" people a little,
I think assembling and painting miniatures is something most of this crowd doesn't like
I think we should have put more efforts in differentiating both games (Another name maybe?)
I think we should have taken Kickstarter more for a Pre-sale machine than a "Crowdfunding"
I think we should have had a more completed version of the rules and we should have submitted to a beta BEFORE the Kickstarter.
I think our offering is too complex and we should have removed all the expansion units and kept those for later / after sale.

That's my 2 cents

As i am a reaaaaally long time both type of guy board- and wargamer as well i really understand both mentioned views.

I would love to have a complete Ex Illis version playable with D6s.

AND i also would love to have a "offline" version of Ex Illis that is sooo easy playable out of the box, without any knowledge of wargames at all. My wife i.e. is only an avid boardgamer and no wargamer. I am not sure if she would still play with me "offline" if the game would require lots and lots of dice rolls. Some dice rolls and some lookups of statistics will be okay, but she loved the automatic resolution of everything. In fact: she sometimes had fewer ideas of the mechanisms but still liked the game a lot!

So, Chinchilla, if you have any D6 version for Boardgamers please post it somewhere in the beta test forum and we'll give it a try.

Best


Jens


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